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Sunday, January 07, 2007

 

Palestinian Orthodox Celebrate Christmas

The altar boys line up before services in Bethlehem on December 24. The women receiving the Holy Eucharist are Greek Orthodox Christians in Gaza. They celebrate Christmas on January 7. The picture is St. Peforious Church.



Comments:
Liebe Nancy!
Vielen vielen Dank fuer die grossartigen Artikel - ich hoffe nur dass die Leute endlich aufwachen und verstehen .. um ehrlich zu sein, hab' ich aber wenig Hoffnung! Die Welt ist viel zu verbohrt - und zu rassistisch!

Nancy .. ich hab' mir die Kommentare von .. du weisst wen ich meine, durchgelesen - zum x-ten Mal ... bitte wirf' diese miserable Type doch raus oder besser, lass ihn gar nicht rein - er hat ein absolut (in meinen Augen) untragbar niedriges Niveau erreicht! Was haeltst du denn von "comment moderation"? Er war auch bei mir, sehr oft und ausserst aggressiv sogar - ich hab's mit Chet's Hilfe geschafft ihn zu entfernen und ausserdem die "moderation" fuer eine Weile aktiviert! Seit kurzer Zeit bleibt er weg .. und wannimmer er kommt - fliegt er POSTWENDEND raus! Er ist in der Zwischenzeit sehr frustriert und scheint die Nase von mir voll zu haben .. hoffe ich jedenfalls.

Dein blog is spitze ... lass dich nicht einschuechtern - weder von Ignoranten, Rassisten, noch irgendeiner anderen dieser miserablen Individuen - BLEIB STARK!!

Herzlichst -
Karin
 
Karin von Muenchen, ich bin voll Deiner Meinung.
Du scheinst es geschafft zu haben diesen Boesewicht aus Deinem Blog rauszuschmeissen. Er verwechselt uns zwei immer.
Ich glaube er haust hier in den Staaten herum und hat nichts anderes zu tun als seinen Giftzahn zu schleiffen.
Hoffentlich findet Nancy einen Weg ihn permanantly rauszuschmeissen. Sein Homepage ist zum "kotzen".
Fuer einige Leutchen ist er natuerlich interesting, die, die sich streiten wollen.
Fuer meinen Part, ich lese Nancy's Blog often..sie hat sehr interessante und traurige Article.
Wann will this madness ever stop?
Karin und Nancy keep up your good work..viele Leutchen lernen von Euch.
Ich wuensche Euch ein gutes neues Jahr.
Freundlichst
Karin I
PS: Nun hat "er" wieder was zu tun und kann uebersetzten.
Right!
 
Karin von Muenchen und Karin von Amerika:

Ich werde leider "moderation" anfangen oder wenn meine Toechter Zeit hatte, werde ich noch mal Haloscan benutzen. Dann koennte ich die Kommentare von ihm wegwerfen.

Es tut mir leid, dass mein Deutsch so fuerchtbar ist aber ich kann alles was Sie geschrieben haben, gut verstehen.

Alles gute in neuem Jahr! Es freut mich dass Sie hier besuchen.
 
My German is also frightening.

I see your Nazi friends are still trying to get you to censure your blog.

Maybe you should tell them that you are not afraid of the truth like they are.
 
Karin von Muencha
Da haust di doch glei nieda!!!
dees isch a dahmischer Kerla, des Buebla dem ma die Gosch zuaschlage sollt.
Gell Maedle Karin, mia hand halt ebbas zuam lacha mit dem Kneachtle.
Nu muas i hoffa, dass Du mei "schwaebisch" auch verstanda tuast. Des goat halt nimma so guat nach all dene Jahra.
Tschau
Karin I

PS: Nancy...nur eine kleine Nachricht in der Sprache der Schwaben an meine Freundin Karin von Muenchen.
 
Servus Karin I!
Des is aba nett dass du mir auf Scwaebisch schreibst - ganz klar dass i des versteh! Das hast aba recht - des is a ganz a damischa oda sogar deppada Kerl der deppad geborn is und nia dazua leana wead! Ich woas ned wiaso dea imma nur so an Schmarrn vazapft - dem soidad ma direkt a Medizin ins Hirn neischuettn aba des war a umsonst!!!

Dei Schwaebisch is KLASSE ... schreib ma doch oefters was - i dad mi riesig frein!!

Tschuess - bis hoffentli boid!!
Karin aus Muenchen
 
OK guys, I am LUCKY enough to have Karin here right next to me to translate!! I took one year of German in high school and wouldn't BEGIN to try to understand or say anything much more than guten tag! BUT, I do remember one thing from German class, in German you can string words together to make ONE word, so here's my stab at what I think of the ibster, he is one BIGGENMOUTHINRETARDTURD.

Umkahlil, you have the patience of a saint!
 
Ich bin in Zürich g'si, in Stuttgart gwä, aus der DDR ausgebürgert und abgeschoben worden (Danke, Vati, daß du in den "Arbeiter-und-Bauern-"Staat zurückgekehrt bist, obwohl ich in Israel geboren bin!) Israel ist meine Heimat, und niemandem, entweder deutschen oder arabischen Nazis, wird es gelingen, mir nochmal ins Exil zu treiben.

Jews tried Europe for two milennia. It didn't work. Europe has nothing to say about residence in the Middle East to the Middle Eastern people it persecuted for two milennia.

Reschid Bey läBt euch grüssen...
 
Aus der DDR ausgebuergert und abgeschoben..
How did that happen?
Once you were in the “DDR” you were in a prison…just like the OT.
Unless you fled there was no way out until the “W A L L” fell in 1989.
I assume you still live in Israel where you were born. Good, so were thousand more Palestinians which Israel is in the process of eradicating, as you should know. I hope you are not one of them who is helping in this ugly process.
As you know getting kicked out of a country which your parents thought to be home (I assume) is not a nice thing to go through.
Now let us know the whole story. I’m a bit confused.
Servus
Karin I
 
Hi Reschid Bey,
Erstmal vielen Dank fuer deine Antwort! Deiner Wortwahl nach zu urteilen, bist du eine guter Freund
von Ibraham Av ... ich glaube kaum du haettest deine Antwort sonst so formuliert! Aber macht nichts ..
ich werds wenigstens versuchen dir meinen Standpunkt zu erklaeren .. dein Freund scheint dem gegenueber resistent zu sein und deshalb hab ich den Kontakt zu him rigoros - und endgueltig unterbunden. Ich habe weder Zeit noch Lust mir die selben Hasstiraden wieder und wieder aufs Butterbrot zu schmieren!
Lass mich bitte ein paar Dinge klarstellen ...
Ich bin alles andere als ein Nazi ... ich weiss nicht wo ihr diese absolut absurde Idee hernehmt! Meine eigene Familie hatte unter diesem furchtbaren Regime schlimm zu leiden - das anzunehmen ist also, logischerweise, vollkommener Bloedsinn!
Es wuerde mir nicht im Traum einfallen, Juden zu verfolgen oder sie toeten zu wollen - das ist absolut aus der Luft gegriffen und koennte nicht weiter von der Wahrheit entfernt sein! Warum wuerde ich dich aus Israel verjagen wollen? Was fuer ein Interesse haette ich das zu tun? Verstehst du dass diese Anschuldigung TOTALER Schwachsinn ist?
Ich werd mich kurz fassen und versuchen dir zu erklaeren wofuer ich stehe:

a)fuer einen Rueckzug von Israel zur 1967 Grenze, also zur sogenennten "Green Line"! Wenn ihr ernsthaft Frieden wollt, koennt ihr eure Nachbarn nicht wie Vieh oder Sklaven behandlen ... ein Nachbar der zufrieden ist, wird niemenden angreifen aber einer der verzweifelt ist - wird IMMER versuchen seine Situation wenigstent ein bisschen zu verbessern um das Noetigste zu bekommen! Das nennt man ALLGEMEINE PSYCHOLOGIE ...

b)fuer ein Jerusalem das BEIDEN Voelkern "gehoert" ... als heilige Stadt der drei monotheistischen Weltreligionen gehoert es natuerlich sowieso der ganzen WELT .. und NICHT nur Israel alleine! Ich will natuerlich KEINE Mauer ect .. aber ein Uebereinkommen dass OST JERUSALEM die Hauptstadt Palaestinas ist - und entsprechend Westjerusalem, die Israels.

c)dass ALLE Settlements geraeumt werden weil nur eine TOTALE Trennung funktioniern wuerde, keine partielle! Es geht nicht dass ein Stueckchen hier und eins dort von Israel zurueckbehalten wird ... es wuerde weh tun - waere aber unumgaenglich!

d)dass ALLE checkpoints PLUS natuerlich diese fuerchterliche Mauer verschwinden!! Mit Erniedrigungen kann man Menschen allenfalls fuer eine Zeit zuhigstellen - aber RUHE und FRIEDEN wird man so NIE bekommen! Ueberleg dir das gut ... du wirst mir recht geben muessen!

e)dass das "Right of Return" gewaehrleistet wird! Dir werden die Haare zu Berge stehen wenn du das liest, du must aber wissen dass das IMMER, noch in 300 Jahren, ein "main issue" sein wird! Ich weiss sehr genau dass damit die zionischtische Idee gescheitert ist ... aber zum Scheitern verurteilt war sie im Grunde genommen von Anfang an! KEIN VOLK laesst sich einfach verjagen und sitzt nachher ruhig in einer Ecke und akzeptiert das ... ich wuerde es auch nicht tun - und du ebenfalls nicht! Ich will den Quatsch von "die sind freiwillig gegangen" oder "es gab keine Palestinenser in diesm Land" gar nicht mehr hoeren - ich schick dir sonst eine Landkarte von VOR 1948 auf der du sehr klar siehst dass das einfach nicht wahr ist, dass Palaestina WIRKLICH und IMMER existiert hat! Ausserdem - google mal was saemtliche "roshei ha memshala" der letzten Jahrzehnte gesagt haben .. dann wirst du sehr schnell verstehen dass ich recht habe!

f) es gibt > als 10,000 Gefangene und darunter eine ERHEBLICHE Anzahl von sogenannten "security prisoners" von denen SEHR VIELE NICHTS, aber auch GAR NICHTS getan haben .. red' mit Leuten die Bescheid wissen und du wirst das GLEICHE hoeren! Die MUESSEN freigelassen werden! Moerder natuerlich nicht .. ich bin absolut fuer Gerechtigkeit! Wer das Leben eines anderen Menschen, egal wer das war, genommen hat - MUSS bestraft werden.

g)der Golan MUSS zurueckgegeben werden ... er ist nicht Israel. Solltest du jetzt sagen "aber ..." dann werd' ich dir sofort antworten "wenn du WIRKLICH Frieden mit deinen Nachbarn willst - deine Bereitschaft WIRKLICHEN FRIEDEN zu machen wird daran gemessen werden!"

h)dass Israel engueltig aufhoert sich als "Herren" und "Meister" zu benehmen und akzeptiert, dass PALAESTINENSER DEN JUDEN ABSOLUT GLEICHWERTIG SIND .. und auch so behandelt werden muessen!

Ok .. das wars im Prinzip! Ich HOFFE du erkennst dass ich NICHT "unter der Guertellinie" gelandet bin wie - sehr offensichtlich - dein Freund ... es ist nicht mein Niveau und wird es auch NIE werden. Zivilisierte menschen sollten ebenso zivilisiert miteinander reden koennen .. dein Freund scheint davon keine Ahnung zu haben und nachdem ich nicht seine "ganenet" bin, werd' ich auch NICHT mehr versuchen ihm das beizubringen!!

Nachdem ich jetzt weiss dass du in Israel lebst .. hier ein paar Worte auf Hebraeisch ...
Ani meod mekawa she ata tawin mi ani - we be ma ani ma'aminah! Ta'aseh li we be etzem le kulam tova gdolah meod we telamed le chaver shelcha eikh lehitnaheg we ledaber as kacha hu rak osseh zhok
me atzmo.
Ani gam mekawa she ata ta'aneh be OTO ZURAH she ani katavti .. BLI laredet re rama nemucha be ioter!! Ulai sot hisdamnut mesuiemet lehachlif machshavot be zura normalit ... be esrat haschem/insh'allah!! Ani culo be'ad ... we ata?

She ihie lecha iom we shawua naim!

Karin
 
Umkahlil
Your German is fantastic. Thank you for posting Karin von Muenchen and my conversation. It is unfortunate to use your precious time to keep your blog clean of those nasty “Schmutzfinken”. Discussion is one thing but personal attacks are criminal. Some horrible nasty Jews live in Florida and our “friend” is one of them.

Karin von Muenchen your bayrisch is much better than mine; I’m only an “Eingeschmeckta”. We moved from “Preussen” to the area in 1957 and were considered the enemy in the “Freistaat Bayern”!!!!
I love everything Muenchen: Viktualienmarkt, ein Muenchner im Himmel, Pfilzer Briefe, the englischen Garten with the thousand of dogs running amongst the people, Fasching, Oktoberfest, etc.,etc.

Your answer to Euro is excellent.
Every point you covered is fact, logical and should make sense to everyone.
Unfortunately people like Euro and friends who are stout Zio’s and fallow the ideology of Herzl are a lost cause for any kind of dialog.
Diese Leute haben Scheuklappen vor den Augen und wehe sie werden kritisiert.
They call us Nazi’s, Anti-Semites and worse.
They dismiss any explanation about our own loved ones who went to the ovens along with their forefathers…they assume to have a free pass to kill what is in their way in order to fulfill their agenda which is, after all, promised to them in the good book!
It seems “Mein Kampf” is their bible in just such a twisted way.
Should we now, I this forum, start calling them those choice words the Nazi’s had for the Jews of the thirties? I think it would fit just nicely given the fact what the Zio’s created not only in Palestine but now throughout the Middle East.
But you are right Karin, we would stoop just as low as they and crawling beneath the ground with the scum of this earth is not my forte.

Was Du in Hebraeisch geschrieben hast kann Euro hoffentlich lesen...

"Raschid Bey" laesst gruessen -
So does Kahlil Gibran-

Servus
Karin I
 
Umkahlil Your German is fantastic. Thank you for ... Umkahlil
Your German is fantastic. Thank you for posting Karin von Muenchen and my conversation. It is unfortunate to use your precious time to keep your blog clean of those nasty “Schmutzfinken”. Discussion is one thing but personal attacks are criminal. Some horrible nasty Zionists live in Florida and our “friend” is one of them.

Karin von Muenchen your bayrisch is much better than mine; I’m only an “Eingeschmeckta”. We moved from “Preussen” to the area in 1957 and were considered the enemy in the “Freistaat Bayern”!!!!
I love everything Muenchen: Viktualienmarkt, ein Muenchner im Himmel, Pfilzer Briefe, the englischen Garten with the thousand of dogs running amongst the people, Fasching, Oktoberfest, etc.,etc.

Your answer to Euro is excellent.
Every point you covered is fact, logical and should make sense to everyone.
Unfortunately people like Euro and friends who are stout Zio’s and fallow the ideology of Herzl are a lost cause for any kind of dialog.
Diese Leute haben Scheuklappen vor den Augen und wehe sie werden kritisiert.
They call us Nazi’s, Anti-Semites and worse.

They assume to have a free pass to kill what is in their way in order to fulfill their agenda which is, after all, promised to them in the good book!
It seems “Mein Kampf” is their bible in just such a twisted way.


Was Du in Hebraeisch geschrieben hast kann Euro hoffentlich lesen...

"Raschid Bey" laesst gruessen -
So does Kahlil Gibran-

Servus
Karin I
 
Jews tried Europe for two milennia. It didn't work. Europe has nothing to say about residence in the Middle East to the Middle Eastern people it persecuted for two milennia.

ha ha ha ha

You tried west and central asia and didn't like that much -

You've also tried living in Israel and didn't like that either -

You have tried to pass yourself off as 'semitic' - that hasn't worked either, and you've had to own up to being a Slavic Eastern European -
- but now you're trying to pretend you are of a Middle Eastern people
ha ha ha ha

Why are you so ashamed of your own Eastern European culture and heritage; the fact that is where you are from; the fact that is where all your ancestors are buried; and the fact Israel is largely composed of Slavs and other Eastern Europeans, most of whom have arrived there in the past 50 years?

Now this particular washed-up racist hasbara parrot is trying california usa -
- we wait with baited breath as to how this utopian eugenic idealist copes in their new environment in America.
As America has been largely stolen from its origial First Nation American inhabitants, and is subsidised and protected by American taxpapyers, this ugly Israeli racist refugee should be feeling right at home there, I wouldn't wonder. A real home from home.
 
More on those long-suffering zio-jews, via J. Otto Pohl's blog:

"The state of Israel currently harbors a number of Stalinist war criminals guilty of abusing, torturing and murdering innocent men, women and children in the Baltic States and Poland. Foremost among these criminals is Solomon Morel wanted for trial in Poland. Israel has twice rejected extradition requests from Poland. . .

Solomon Morel ran the Swietochlowice-Zgoda camp for ethnic Germans in 1945. A recorded 1 538 inmates perished at his hands due solely to their German ancestry. . . most of them were women and children.

Another Stalinist war criminal currently being harbored in Israel is Nachman Dusanski wanted by Lithuania for the Rainai Forest massacre. Dusanski helped oversee and participated in the brutal torture and murder of 74 Lithuanian high school students in 1941. Like in the case of Morel, the Israeli government has refused to extradite Dusanski to stand trial for this crime against humanity."

Israel claims that the statute of limitations has run out. No other country in the world has a statute of limitations on crimes against humanity and Israel does not apply this limit to nazi crimes against the jews. But then, noone else in the world claims to be a "chosen people" either.
 
Joe90: Your racist essentialism disgusts me. It is true that the recent immigration of Russians and other FSU/CISer's has skewed Israeli demographics, but even the majority of "Euro-Israelis" were born in Israel, and have been raised in Hebrew culture, to say nothing to the Arabo-Jewish culture of the Mizrahim. Moreover, culturally, I am in a marginal position within Israel, whose vernacular culture is dominated by a palpable Middle-Easternness. The fact that you look at the slight majority of Euro-phenotype Israelis (when only ca. 19% of Israelis alive today were BORN in Europe-North America (let us say the Eurosphere) as unambigiously European is racist.) The vast majority of Israelis who arrived in the last 50 years were poor Jews from Arab lands, but as you do not know Jewish history in the slightest I see no reason to consider your remarks on my "Slavic culture and heritage" as having any validity at all.
 
Incidentally, California is doing quite well--the demographic reconquest of the Southwest by the hordes of refugees from Latin American klepto-squalor-ocracies continues, an unbelievable métissage continues apace, in the human, cultural, and culinary spheres, and the refusal to turn the City of Quartz over to be milked dry by the conquistator elites of the DF prevents serious revanchism. Indigenous activism, as opposed to claims made in the name of the Mexican (colonial-settler) state, is rampant.

"Tlayuda" is Oaxacan for "Melawach", it seems, and this is the ONE place I can find them both easily. Quick-cooking pan breads of the world unite!
 
The future of Palestine!!!!
I have found an interesting clip that starts by showing Ismail Haniyeh playing soccer and then the things get worse.
The movie is very important if we want to protect the palestinian nation.
We really need to hope that we will N-O-T become kandahar!!
youtube.com/watch?v=mqFmsynPYnw
As we are very close to that.

Batal palestine.
 
Ethnic groups: Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ciaisrael.html
 
Thanks Umkhalil for posting that, I was just looking for those stats. There is no end to the lies that the jews of the zionist enterprise are willing to tell themselves. This eurosabra who squats here is a perfect example of a delusional, lying zio-jew.

The fact that Palestinian-born jews are a minority in the zionist enterprise is so obvious to anyone who travels in Palestine: many of those super-settlers speak with a pronounced American accent, many of the Border Guards are ex-Soviets or Ethiopians. As a matter of fact, my travel companions who spoke Russian got on very well in the zionist enterprise with speaking only Russian. And it wasn't the Ethiopians who they spoke to.
 
1996 estimates from a source that isn't even Israeli.
Suure.
I'd get you better stats if I thought the truth would change your mind, but I REALLY have no time to quibble. You bad faith is evident in using a ten-year-old estimate from a non-Israeli source simply because it says what you want. Proof that refuting you would be a waste of my time.
Try an Israeli government site for the latest census.
 
CBS, Statistical Abstract of Israel, 2006.
Jews by continent of birth: Israel-born 68.4%, born abroad 31.6%, Europe/North America-born 21.8%, Asia 4%, Africa 5.8%
http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st02_24.pdf
 
you'll notice that the hasbara parrot has changed my original statement from something that was concerned about where all their jewish-israeli ancestors are from,
to something to do with how many jewish-israelis are native born today.

For racist propagandists that keep spouting on about how all their ancestors came from Palestine 2,000 years ago -
- to go from that, to quibbling about the fact I said most of today's jewish-israelis arrived in the last 50 years is just what I come to expect from these hasbara parrots.

They have no problem with concepts involving 1,000s of years, but do have lots of problems with concepts over the past 50 years!

OK,
to stop the hasbarites from meaninglessly quibbling, it is obvious I meant to say and was refering to he past 100-75-50 years.

A bit rich a racist like this hasbara parrot here, a known supporters of racist war crimes and war criminals, calling anyone a racist!

what about jewish-israelis over the past 75 years or the past 100 years - how many jewish-israelis are descended from eastern european slavs and how many from native Palestinians?

Or are you too ashemd to go and get the figures for us?

go get your own blog if you are unhappy at the service you get at this one - just because it says Palestine somewhere on the title banner must make you think it automatically belongs to you because 1000s of years ago your ancestors...[fill the blanks - standard hasbara doggerell]
 
If you are worried about where everyone is "originally" from, that is the descent of the present-day population, to the exclusion of the rights and views of that population, you are an essentialist and a racist, on par with those who argue that present-day Palestinians are "Hauranis" because some of them are undoubtedly descended from Syrian migrant seasonal laborers.

I think the sooner Left Israelis begin making their claims on the basis of their existence as an extant human community with inalienable rights, as Edward Said did for the Palestinians, the sooner we'll be done with most of the freakery of the Zionist hard Right. The fact that Said was always hemming and hawing on Jewish rights is, well, besides the point. He would reply, strictly speaking, that such rights were not his brief.

I choose not to blog because I believe another Left Zionist blog would be superfluous, however, I keep showing up here because I think Umm K needs the contributions of at least ONE Israeli who is aware of the colonial distortions of the past and of the present, because unless she intends to overpower Zionism--as every Palestinian nationalist party has so far, with the exception of MAKI, Abna al-Balad, etc--she is going to have to convince those of us who see the inadequacies and cruelty of the system but want some assurance that the alternative for us as Israelis is not Hamas. (I have no objection to Hamas governing Gaza, the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem, and the Triangle if the inhabitants so desire. "Mighty big of you, sahib." "Ein Baya, Ya Shebab."/sarc)

I'd agree to the return of the ca. 300,000 Palestinian refugees born in or before '48 in a heartbeat, which is an odd "Zionist" position. Some of us have a utopian political position closer to the Jewish National Home than the State of Israel as it currently exists, and would sign up for any party that could guarantee it.
 
So basically you're saying that because Israeli is populated by the Israeli-born, the masses of Jews deported from the Arab world, with a leavening of Russians and Americans of recent arrival, that it's a colonial construct because its present population is overwhelmingly the result of DEcolonization of the Arab world? Maghribi Jews didn't leave "colonial" North Africa, it took their Arab brothers' gaining power to deport them en masse. Five hundred thousand Moroccan Jews, and EVERY ONE of them a personal friend of the king, as the development town saw in Southern Israel went...
 
I was going to retype the "Jews by Origin" section of table 2.24 when I realized that it lumped 10th generation Ashkenazi residents of Jerusalem in with this year's arrivals from New York and Moscow as "Motzei Europa/America." Not fine-toothed enough for our purposes. Must dig deeper.
 
Ask a straightfoward question from a 'leftie-zionist' hasbara parrot
(I love that label - in the same way you get leftie-nazis and leftie-fascists of cousre)
and just look at the never ending stream of verbage.

Compare and contrast
- the comment where the hasbara parrot gives a straightforward statistic account for native Jewish-Israelis born in Israel in the past 50 years. Fair enough.

- then compare that comment,
with the previous 3 above where the 50 year limit is breached, and they are required to admit Jewish-Israelis aren't semitic, they're mostly immigrant Slavs from eastern europe!

As good a visual indicator as you'll ever get - you don't even need to read the content to get the idea that there is something very fishy going on in the informantion proffered by our leftie-racist propagandist.
 
I would find it interesting to see the numbers for non Jewish Palestinians living in Palestine between say 1800 and 1950 or even earlier and what the population is for cities during that time period. It seems difficult to find accurate statistics.
 
You can find statistics on the internet at http://www.palestineremembered.com
 
Thanks for the link I think that site puts the population of Palestine before the Zionism push at around 400,000 which matches up with another site I found. Some claim the number to me more some less. The high side puts it at about 600,000 the low at about 100,000.

This is one of the many statistics I found palestineremembered.com
Palestinian Mortality, 1860-2000
LIFE
Expectancy
MALE Female Infant Cruse
1860 22 24 380 42
2000 70 74 27 4


http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/depopulated.html This site I suppose is the polar opposite of what you gave the link to yet has similar claims for 1800 – today population statistics.

What will it take for these 2 people to stop all this fighting and death and get on with life?
 
What will it take for these 2 people to stop all this fighting and death and get on with life?

- I was getting a but paranoid there mate. I thought you were referring to me and eurosabra!

By the way,
eurosbara knows I have no animosity or hatred towards Jewish-Israelis, and nor do I think Jewish-Israelis don't belong to Israel and are just a bunch of foreigners.

Jewish-Israelis have as much rights as anyone else on the planet, no more and no less.

eurosabra knows these are my views but continues to whine and complain about my crimes, and those of others, which don't exist, but which they invent in order to try to smear people like me.

They are the racists, no me.
 
The problem with using anyone's personal background as a litmus test is that it can prove anything one likes, given the date chosen by the arbitrary ideologue in question for the "frame-story" of one's narrative. If we break the 100-year limit, we have to account for non-indigenous Islamic not-necessarily-Arabophone populations as well, and to be perfectly blunt, the Ottoman population survey is certainly good enough to give a rough count of the number of Muslims in Ottoman Palestine who were of Bosnian, Algerian, or Syrian origin, i.e. immigrants or 2nd generation recent arrivals in the period 1830-1914, when Muslim population began expanding again, as opposed to the fitful Ladinophone Sephardi renaissance of the period 1492-1789. We are talking demographic shifts of several tens of thousands up to 100,000 modifying a population of a few hundreds of thousands, in other words, real population change. Population flux was a reality even in the supposed monolithic Ottoman and Mamluke periods. So in addition to Jewish colonists, we would need to discuss the Algerian and Bosnian retired soldiers/tax farmers of the 1840s-1870s, who produced significant friction with the fellahin--the history of Caesaria, for example, is not smooth--and the fact that Arab civilization in post-Byzantine Palestine arose through military conquest and brutal colonialism which impacted a Byzantine urban population and a rural Jewish peasantry ca. six hundred years after the initial Roman destruction of Jerusalem.
 
Joe90: You merely call for the dissolution of the State of Israel, knowing full well that the Palestinians propose only an Islamofascist theocratic government to replace it. I prefer the Basic Law, Nationality and Citizenship to the Hamas Charter, and so far, so do 1,500,000 Palestinian citizens of Israel who could claim "repatriation" to Hamas-stan as members of the Ummah if they so desired, although they would be breaking Israeli law in entering Area A of the Oslo Accord if they did so. There are different flavors of the primacy of religion in determining identity, and the relative disenfranchisement of Israeli-Palestinian-Arabs is apparently preferable to Hamas-style Islamofascist theocracy, if the ISRAELI citizenship and residency of the Israeli-Palestinian community is any guide.
 
You merely call for the dissolution of the State of Israel

- lies, pure and simple, so bog off you hasbara parrot.

I have no interest in dissolving anything, except maybe into laughter, at the antics of you hasbara parrots increasingly desperate attempts to keep the crimes of your beloved violent racist war criminal regime of Israel beyond rational scrutiny, enquiry and debate.
 
Joe90: Does the Scottish PSC NOT call for the immediate implementation of UN Res. 194 in its broadest (Palestinian) interpretation, which would mean the demographic transformation of Israel and its DDR-style dissolution as the new population votes in the wake of demographic change? 4m+ Palestinian immigrants aren't going to vote for Zionist parties, and MAKI is gone, and the PFLP has never held power anywhere except Ma'alot, for a few hours, where they slaughtered helpless Middle Eastern Jews, and Hamas's agenda is clear as day...

Incidentally, modern mitochondrial DNA research appears to indicate that a majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from one or another of four ancient Middle Eastern women. mtDNA passes matrilinearily, without recombination, so there is none of the "Thomas Jefferson or his nephew" confusion as with Y-chromosomes. So the "returning ancient Hebrews" narrative of Zionist psychohistory has much more basis in population genetics than the "Khazar hypothesis."
 
you tell me bogot does it or doesn't it?

It's called international law and order - something racist war crime supporting hasbara parrots aren't comfortable with

Yet one more hurdle to jump for Palestinians - what is says in a Hamas document!

How many excsues is that Israeli ethnic cleansing scum have made in order to carry on their henious mass-murders and ethnicide?

Israel has a couple of hundred nuclear warheads
- it boasts of having the world's fourth largets military
- it occupies 3 of its neighnours in part or in whole
- has the full support of the world's only remaining military superpower
- holds 10,000 Palestinian kidnap victims
- has c.400,000 Jewish-Israelis living illegally on Palestinian soil
- has an overt racist ethnic cleansing fanatic in its Israeli govet cabinet, the rest as all covert

And yet,
it's brainwashed fanatical racist lunatics like the hasbara parrot here,
who can't help stop talking racist propaganda logorehea,
are convinced it's Palestinians herded into specially built Israeli warsaw ghettos ready for the final solution once the opportunity arises,
who some how are the problem!

No, sorry, it's some words written on a piece of paper somewhere that they regurgitate time and again - they never mention anything else by Hamas, just this particular document -
- forget the rest of reality!

Yes,
I was wondering when you'd get round to Himmler's mitochondria dna thing -
- its been doing the rounds of hasbara parrots recently, you've been a bit slow in your parrotting along with the rest of the chorus -
- please don't tell me about genetics, I could write a small book on it -
- and what about your Slavic past and inheritence, still too painful and embarrassing to admit it

go get your own blog racist blabber mouth
 
Amazing what you can swot up at on wikipedia and then pretend your an expert on the subject
Mitochondrial DNA
- see the references at the bottom of the page for the hasbara parrot's sudden burst of neo-Darwinian eloquence.

It should strike people as obvious that these are still the EXACT same arguments Hitler used to justify his racial policy of 'lebensraum' - it provided no basis for his violent eugenical and social engineering and provides no basis for any justification of The Nakba in 1948, and the continuing and ongoing genocide ethnicide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine and Palesininas.

Notice as well,
that genetics has absolutely nothing to say about culture and history and the adoption of fashion, the spread of cultural change or its stability - and tells us next to nothing about The Old Testament and its collection of fairytales and old wives stories. It is merely a eclectic gathering of myths and half-truths at best, written and re-written over many, may centuries

Of course,
we are all descended from 6 Eve's - but that's old hat these days - I expect everbody knows that.
 
Nearly Half Of Ashkenazi Jews Descended From Four 'Founding Mothers'
American Technion Society
17 Jan 2006

Science Daily — Some 3.5 million or 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from just four "founding mothers" who lived in Europe 1,000 years ago. The mothers were part of a small group who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish community, which was established in Europe as a result of migration from the Near East.

....the four founding mtDNA likely of Middle Eastern origin underwent a major overall expansion in Europe during the last millennium.

So where did these 4 women come from then, just next door perhaps, and what about the other 50% of Jewish Ashkinazis, where are they all from?

It doesn't actually quite fit in with your racial Himmlerian gobbledegook does it?

Notice the
likely to have come from the Near East
statement - not exactley the authoritative bald assertion of your own is it?

But then, I would never expect anything in the real world to remain untainted after you have processed and filtered it through your racist programming and brainwashed deluded mind.

Besides racist neo-darwinist scum like you using this as anti-Palestinian propagand - it is actually very intersting.

I already knew about the very interesting DNA studies of Jewish religious folk.
 
It seems that racist Haggis Joe just can't let Jews have a paradigm, when they are an established Israeli-national community now on their 4th generation, they are "racist Hasbara parrot" colonial implants, when some evidence for their ancient indigenous roots appears, they are "Himmler."

I would think the invasion of Jewish-settled areas of Mandate Palestine by six Arab armies (Jordan, Iraq, Syria, ALA, Egypt, Palestinian mujahadin) and the slaughter of the residents of the Etzion Bloc by Palestinan militiamen would justify the "clear and secure" operations that destroyed a limited number of Palestinian villages in the coastal plain, the Jerusalem corridor, and the Galilee. And certainly the situation degenerated into a post-colonial ethnic conflict, beyond the bounds of military necessity. Kastel needed to be cleared, for example, Sheik Muwanis did not. I think you also don't realize that MANY Israeli witnesses on scene, like Yizhar, were horrified by the expulsions and would have prevented them if they could have, leaving Israel with roughly double the Arab population it had in 1949. And if there had been no war, 1947-bordered Israel would have had a population of 600.000-1m Jews and 400.000-500.000 Arabs.

I agree with you that limitations on freedom of movement are a bad idea. However, I see that the Gaza withdrawal, like Oslo, like the Lebanon withdrawal, has done nothing but bring the war back into Kiryat Shemona, Tel Aviv, West Jerusalem, and Sderot, places where it hadn't been for years and places whose conquest is obviously the goal of the Palestinian national movement, and its government, Hamas, which will receive no $ from Israel and no MORE land in addition to Gaza and the cantons of the West Bank until it ceases desiring the entire Land of Israel and slaughtering Jews at every opportunity, at a bare minimum. However I think Israel is damaging itself as well as the Palestinians in not allowing NORMAL life in the PA-areas, however if Palestinians are shooting each other I don't know how much Israel can do about it. Certainly weapons shipments to Abu Mazen are a bad idea.

Everything in Jewish population genetics DNA science is only ever going to be "likely" because you can't get a tissue sample DNA match like with Egyptian mummies. Duh. But it DOES eliminate the Jews-as-Khazars-and-only-that bullshit that bullshit artists like Joachim Martillo push on the Palestinians, that George Saliba adopted wholeheartedly.
 
This genetic evidence hasn't anything to do with Palestine - these four mothers could have came from the Arctic, the Amazon, the moon, anywhere-
- you obviously have no interest in actual facts when they get in the way of your little neo-darwinist racist utopian ghetto on the shore of the eastern Meditterranean.
Or as you call it a 'paradigm'!

And I don't call a whole population names such as hasbara parrot, just specific individuals. I leave that sort of racist rubbish to hasbara parrots like you.

invasion of Jewish-settled areas of Mandate Palestine by six Arab armies
- lies

But no mention of actual reality - the racist attack and ethnic cleansing of Palestine and Palestinians in 1948

Before The Nakba
Palestinians owned or controlled 94% of their homeland
- after 1048 Palestinians owned or controlled 0% of their now former homeland stolen by a gang of Slavic racist ethnic clensers and war crimnials

Some of these racist ethnic cleansers were survivors of Hitler's genocidal activities in eastern europe -
- makes you think!

Also I have never mentioned the word 'khazar' ever, until just now - so that's another lie

In fact all the above is just one extended lie and the usual racist rubbish

And mDNA doesn't need original tissue from a sample of a population from way back -
- as far as I can tell, it relies on the slower random mutation rates of mDNA compared to nucleus DNA in order to,
-not only track the offspring on the mothers side through the generations
- but also to measure time taken to get from the original ancestor mother down to the present generation

You're probably getting actual real archaeo-genetic science confused with Hollywood movie psuedo-science rubbish like Jurassic Park -
- much like the rest of the little racist bubble you exist in, its just a mere fantasy that you know what you're talking about
 
Joke90: Rubbish rubbish rubbish invasion denial rubbish rubbish blah blah blah. Certainly the Syrians THOUGHT they took Mishmar HaYarden, the Jordanians THOUGHT they took Kfar Etzion and local Palestinian militia killed 97% of the defenders, certainly the Jordanians took the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem and expelled the tradition-bound Jewish population, who would gladly have resumed their lives as dhimmis if given the chance--instead their houses of study,
synagogues, and cemetaries were destroyed by the Arab Legion.

The Middle Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Jews is confirmed by the prevalence of Y-chromosome haplotypes originating in the Middle East. The Four Mothers are just icing on the Biblical cake, d00d. Palestinians are digging for genetic evidence as well but unfortunately the more interesting work made untenable claims of descent from Canaanites and was withdrawn. If you could read Yiddish, you could find Ben Gurion's 1919 book on Eretz Israel and his hypothesis of Palestinian Arabs as lost cousins of the Jews. But of course he was a European racist utopian, right? If you read Hebrew, you could find Brenner's "From a Notebook"(1921)..."No politics! This is precisely what our role should NOT be...[rather] a soulful connection...for generations to come...with no aim...with no purpose...except to be brothers and friends." And that's not even including Hurgin, Burla, and Shami, who WERE natives, and wrote Arab literature that just happened to be in Hebrew.

The Mandatory Government controlled the vast quantity of land, roughly 12-16% was held by Arabs and Jews in private hands or communal organizations, in a roughly equal split.

The men who fought and died to defend Israel in 1948 were overwhelmingly Eretz-Israel-born, as the British held European survivors in concentration camps in Kenya and Mauritius until long after the conclusion of the war. As a result, authors such as S. Yizhar, Moshe Shamir, and Amos Kenan recognized the violence done to their neighbours and the land, criticizing the expulsions as soon as they took place, while the higher-ups made policy: "They do not return." And yet 100,000 returned and remained soon after the war, rejoining the 150,000 who were not expelled. This is post-colonial civil war, NOT ethnic cleansing.
 
Still on about Etzion bloc -
- about the only thing you've got going for you

Well, some of the besieged gave themselves up and when Arab forces walked out to take them prisoners they were fired on by remianing Jewish resistence - it was taken to be a trap. Obvioulsy it didn't put the Arab attackers in a good frame of mind. So you can see, in a time of crisis it isn't just your racist victims who behave badly but those paragons of virtue, the ethnic cleansers of 1948, Jewish-Israelis.

Also, some of the Arab attackers were chanting 'Dier Yassin', so again, the situation wasn't as stark as you try to paint it. Nice try racist hasbara parrot.

Try reading something other than Benny Morris.

I see your still being a Slav Denier - why are you so ashamed of your thousands of years of Slavic inheritance?
I find this quite bizarre

The Mandatory government, owned what exactly? Land held by a transitory foreign British body, and land belonged to Palestinians, was and is Palestine.

Jews owned, at most 6% of Palestine land, nothing more.
 
What Slavic inheritance? I read English, French, German, Hebrew, Yiddish, and Arabic. Not a Slavic language among them. Perhaps part of my DNA. That would make you a racist. My family on my mum's side has been out of Europe since 1894, on my father's since 1938, and it's not MY fault he dipped into the mythology of the DDR and tried to take us back. I am more conversant with European languages than with Arabic, Persian, and Turkish, true. Israelis need to learn Arabic, now that the generation of Moroccan-and Iraqi-born Middle Eastern Jews is passing from the scene.

The rest of your post is crap, including apologetics for Arab massacres of Jews. I suggest you read up on the Ottoman Land Law of 1858, for starters, for the various categories of public lands. "Palestinians"--for no one called himself that at the time--controlled little land--state lands certainly did not belong to Arabs, very few Arabs controlled a small portion of them, such as municipal officials, and the large private landowners were wealthy absentee urban effendis, who certainly were Arab but not locals, i.e. Damascenes, Beirutis, etc. The Waqf was probably the largest single "Arab" landholder under the Ottomans. Please, no mythology where there is recorded history. So, yes, private persons and communal organizations, Arab and Jewish, owned 8-16% of the land.

I rather like Benny Morris now that he has found his voice but the poor man is trapped in an apocalyptic vein like Van Creveld.
 
Go to Palestine Remembered for statistics about Land Ownership:
http://www.palestineremembered.com

Go to plands for information about the Jewish National Fund
http://www.plands.org

More on landownership from Walid Khalidi is in the links section of this blog.
 
The fanatical rantings of a brainwashed ethnic cleanser, proven time and agian.

They still cannot admit to their own Slavic origins as anything more than just some blank historical interlude in their phoney invented geaneology of themselves, to try to hide the fact euro-balloon and their ilk are actaually eastern european.

A couple of thousand years of their own Slavic culture and history is quietly forgotten about. It is of no significance whatsoever and has had no effects on the current bunch of racist ethnic cleansers and racist war criminals who have been in charge of Israel since it was stolen from its owners, the native Palestinians.

And yet, its Palestinians who don't belong in Palestine. They are the ones, we are given to understand, who have actually stolen Palestine from Israelis!!

ps
notice that once one phoney justification for Israeli ethnic cleansing is proven untrue, like the true believer and pavlovian fanatic that they are, the hasbara parrot just moves on blissfully to the next heap of tosh, nonsense, lies, propaganda and fabricated geaneological and historical nonsense.

Etzion Kfar is not as clear cut as this racist nutter is trying to make out. Notice that just one incident, in a widespread conflict, is being put forward as a justification for the Israeli regime for not allowing Palestinians to return home once hostilities had ended.

As for the actions of Jordan - well they were in cahoots with Ben Gurion in carving up Palestine between the two of them. I fail to see what it has to do with Palestinians.

Notice also,
that the bestial behaviour of Israelis during 1948 is completely blanked-out. Practically every military action that Israelis were successful in, was accompanied by war crimes of one description or another. The practice was widespread amongst them.
 
Joke90: Cultures disappear in one generation if not passed on, that's why Yiddish culture is almost dead--the few survivors of the Great European Slaugther of the Jews assimilated into cultures that did not value Yiddish in Europe, North America, and Israel. So unless you believe that some mystical "Slavic" value was passed on by Jewish DNA (which is in itself a Nazi racial view with a long pedigree, so you are following a long BNP tradition as far as that goes) "thousands of years of heritage" have vanished utterly, preserved in little bits of Russian buzzwords in Shlonsky's Hebrew poetry, perhaps in Jabotinsky's writings, in short, in cultural texts that one Israeli in one hundred would read, since the Hebrew speakers do not generally read Russian and the Russians do not bother with the Hebraicized corners of the Eretz Israel writings of Russians who wrote about Russia in Hebrew.

I also don't know why you identify Eastern European Jewish culture as Slavic/Russian when Yiddish was the common language of Eastern European Jews until enforced Russification began in the 1840s, and remember that the masses of European Jews were in Poland/Lithuania and those populations retained Yiddish as their primary language until the Holocaust. Perhaps you will not allow the Jews the language that was unequivocally theirs and no one else's as you will not allow them a homeland, but wish them to be nostalgic for the days of being strangers everywhere.
 
Obviously, in your drive to negate Israel, you regard Israeli culture (now ca. 127 years old, since Hebrew was revived as a spoken language in Jerusalem) as a nullity, which causes you to fall back on a racial definition of Jewishness, which you misleadingly label as "Slavic", when in fact, at least culturally, textually, its origin is YIDDISH.

So autonomous Jewish culture counts for crap in your analysis, whether in Europe or the land of Israel, but Palestinians are allowed their self-definition as the only "natives." So I need no longer read anything you write, as you are a racist nutter.
 
in your drive to negate Israel
- more racist fanatical logorhaea

It's always the same with these israeli racists - everybody must acknowledge 'israel' in some form or other, even though people do, and I have done, time and again -

But it is never enough for these truly fanatical lunatics, who don't even live in Israel - everybody has to keep saying these empty words and phrases, time and again, over and over and over - just as you would expect in any totalitarian racist regime - spouting slogans in public at every opportunity, parrot fashion

What was wrong about the autonomous Jewish culture of your Slavic ancestors that your are so embarrassed about - why can't you admit you are mostly all Slavic, it's an historical fact?

And please,
I hope you keep your last promise you repulsive racist pavlovian hasbara parrot in california, of Slavic ancestry - but if experience is anything to go by, you won't
 
Israeli culture (now ca. 127 years old, since Hebrew was revived as a spoken language in Jerusalem)

- ha ha ha

Perhaps you will not allow the Jews the language that was unequivocally theirs and no one else's as you will not allow them a homeland, but wish them to be nostalgic for the days of being strangers everywhere.

- boo hoo hoo

ps
this was one of the racist lunatics that was only just now, a few comments up, trying to tell us that before 1948 Palestine didn't belong to Palestinians!

- forgetting to add, of course, that it certainly didn't belong to a bunch ofrecent Slav immigrants
 
Actually, Israelis care little what Europeans think, it's enough that Europeans have been removed from power over the great masses of Jews, and we hope that European-citizen Jews will soon be removed from the area of danger.

Ashkenazi Jews are not Slavs, you and Pilsudski notwithstanding. Assimilation from Yiddish into Polish and Russian culture was always (at least before the Revolution) more or less forced, much more "stick" than "carrot", and often the "carrot" (unlike embourgeoisment in W. Eur/Britain/France/Germany/Austria-Hungary) was on the order of avoiding starvation.

And there is nothing wrong with Yiddish culture, it simply didn't become the vernacular of Israeli society, partly because Arab Jews were not willing to use it as a localized lingua franca. When Hebrew developed as a lingua franca, it was used, including by authors such as Burla and Shami, who wrote stories in Hebrew about indigenous Jewish life that must have been Arabophone, in the 00s and 10s.
 
So I need no longer read anything you write, as you are a racist nutter.

- obviously you don't really believe any of this

European-citizen Jews will soon be removed from the area of danger
- same goes for your pals in the old Third Reich

There is no space in old Palestine for legally entitled Palestinian refugees, but when it comes to fellow members of the new master race, whole new vistas open up for racist lebenraum colonisation.

And I have never mentioned Yiddish in my life, except on one other occasion (I think) to say that I thouight it sounded a glorious and funny sounding kind of language - full of heart and spirit etc

Obviously, me never really having mentioned Yiddish before doesn't stop you making accusations about me and all the derogatory things I've said about it.

I thought you were the one that was living in denial about your roots as well - oh, of course, you are!

You and your Slav pals owned Palestine before 1948
etc etc bleat bleat
 
The ambiguity was caused by my wording, not yours...the emphasis on indigenous Hebrew culture in my post may have in some way obscured Yiddish culture. So I reiterated that there was nothing WRONG with it, it simply didn't become the lingua franca (as 3,000,000+ native speakers DIED in Europe 1939-45, there was no critical mass left for that to happen.) If Israel had been a bit more forward-looking and Hebrew not as well established, Arabic-speaking Jews might have been welcomed as Arabs and their language used as a bridge to the Arab world, insofar as that was possible with Maghribi-, Yemenite, and Iraqi-Arabic.

I don't see how any Palestinians other than the ca. 300,000 "1948 Arabs" born in Israel/Mandate Palestine but exiled by the war period ('48-'51) have a "right of return" to Israel*, along with Diaspora Jews. But certainly Diaspora Palestinians have a right of return to the Palestinian cities of Judea/Samaria/West Bank and to Gaza. I am willing to yield the Jewish legal and religious claims to sovereignty Judea/Samaria in return for peace, however since peace is not on offer by ANY Palestinian party in govt. or opposition this willingness is moot.

*internally displaced persons, of course, are Israeli citizens and the denial of return/compensation to those communities is wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
Peace is not on offer by who exactly?

All the Israelis have to do is go back home, simple as that. Nothing could be simpler. Nothing.

Who is occupying who?

who attacked the whole of Lebanon and sprayed south Lebanon with cluster bombs?

who occupies 3 countries illegally?

who is butchering and strangling the life out of the folk of Gaza?

wake up!

One excuse after another.

Every country or people that the racist Israeli regime continues to brutalise wants peace, every single one.

Isn't it about time you realised this, and that these are merely paper-thin propaganda excuses for the Israeli regime to continue what it is doing, and what it always meant to do ?
 
Home, like Sderot? Like Kiryat Shemona? Like Metulla, which was subjected to a GROUND ATTACK by Hezbollah INFANTRY at the opening of last war? (cf. Michael Totten for reports on that...)

The denial of Israel as HOME is precisely what the war is about, and all withdrawals have always been followed by a wider war, on Jerusalem, on Tel Aviv, even on Haifa and, yes, Daliyat al-Karmel. The number of Israeli-Palestinians killed by Lebanese and West Bank Palestinians is significant, and is a sign that the war is transforming to one between Islamists and Israelis tout court.

I don't have to argue that it's anti-Semitism alone when Hezbollah kills almost as many Israeli-Arab Muslims and Druze as Jews. They, Hezbollah, are just Islamic nihilists, who want a shariah state for their "Muslim Brothers" in Falastin--in the interim, they'll just randomly slaughter them, for living alongside Jews.
 
And what was the excuse, previous to this one or ones?

The currently excuse for Israel's illegal occupations and refusing to engage in peace negotiations or to follow the rule of international law and order are
- words written on a Hamas document somewhere -
- that's it really, apart from People having the perfectly legitmate right to self-defence when Israel attacks or occupies them - I suppose not following your orders, in the eyes of fanatic like you, is a very bad crime indeed

It isn't about -
- 400,000 Jewish-Israelis who seem perfectly at ease, mingling with all these fanatical genicidal Islamists in Occupied Palestine

- it isn't about complete and total rejection of all peace overtures without pre-conditions, from every party or People in the area

- it isn't about Israel's continuous illegal military occupations of 3 other surrounding countries

- it isn't about Israel's unprovoked aggression against all its neighbours throught its history - the latest was against Lebanon using the usual Hitlerian pretence of some minor border incident as an excuse to launch a full scale attack on the rest of Lebanon itself

You really have to be a brainwashed fanatic to see Israel as some kind of victim, and not the aggressor and the violator of international law and order.
 
You really have to be a brainwashed fanatic to see Israel as the victim, and not the aggressor and violator of international law and order.

The current excuse for Israel's unprovoked aggression and three illegal military occupations of neighbouring countries is -

- some words written on some Hamas documant somwhere, that's about it

- and maybe the right of people to defend themselves agianst unprovoked aggression, rather than just following their orders - I can see why that might be a very bad thing to do in the eyes of a brainwashed totalitarian fanatic such as yourself

Of course, other current excuses for Israeli aggression and illegal occupations don't include -

- 400,000 Jewish-Israelis illegally occupying Palestine don't seem to frightened at the prospect of mingling in with these Palestinian terrorists - they are even positively encouraged to live side by side with these deranged antisemite Arab fanatics, through government loans and the like

- rejecting outright all peace overtures and talks without any preconditions, with the people whose peace and quiet they are violating

- Israel always being the aggressor carrying out unprovoked attacks against its victims, at all times since it began in 1948

- Israeli refusal to abide by international law and order, straight and simple
 
Here is an article quoting polling results for occupied Palestinian opinion (refugee and Israeli Palestinian opinion not included) and the level of support for a future Muslim state on Palestinian soil, old and what still remains to them after 100 year campaign of genocide-ethnicide -
Taken for a Ride by the Israeli Left
by
Steven Friedman and Virginia Tilley
The Electronic Intifada,
26 January 2007

"...Palestinian support for an Islamic state has run at about 3 percent..."

So much for the scary prospect of an Islamic future for the folk of the region.

As for Heznollah -
- the Shia community of southern Lebanon were as 'docile as a doormat' (Robert Fisk) until Israel started their usual barbaric racist war crimes, massacres and deliberately ethnically cleansing and by making south Lebanon as unliveable in, as human possible - setting up concentration camps like Khiam and repeatedly invading and illegally occupying the area until The Party of God chased them out!

Strange how Hezbollah, who are able to defend themselves effectiveley against any more Israeli racist war crimes atrocities are described as 'Islamic nihilists' -
- well, if that is the case, since when did that come about and who made them that way?
 
You can't make this stuff up (in this instance, I wish I could) -
- here is some brilliant little pithy interchanges

Euston manifesto un-logic.
from
MediaLens.org messegeboard
Feb 05 2007

The First and Second Responses on the thread, as follows -

Question -
"Why can't those who say they support the Palestinian cause tell you what type of Palestine they would like to see?"

Answer no.1 -
Isn't it for the Palestinians to decide what type of Palestine they want?

Answer no.2 -
Because those who support the Israeli 'cause' can't tell you what particular Israel they would like the Palestinians to recognise.


Me - ambrosial brainfood!
 
Hamas has instituted policy in the form of suicide bombings in Israel since '93-'94. Any Palestinian state governed by Hamas (alone) would simply find all its resources devoted to the macro-genocide which is Hamas's final goal, as its tens of micro-genocides in buses, cafes, and hotels have proved. Moreover, Israel cannot base its chances for survival on the possibility that Palestinian Islamists will learn some moderation when the group has always been openly genocidal when marginal. Political power will merely make them more effective Nazis, their goals and methods have been public since 1988.

I realize this is a somewhat circular argument--lefty pomos like you really can't understand that suicide bombings and genocide ARE what the Palestinian Islamic movement really wants, because their theory proclaims it and their praxis bears that out.
 
For completeness sake,
here is the latest interview with the leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, against whom the Apartheid Israeli government has sent out an Israeli SS Political Execution Squad to deal with -
- because the Israeli government has no moral or intellectual case it can use to argue with, hence it can only use violence against the people, especially, they illegaly occupy and are under the process of exterminating wholesale, as a unique cultural entity.

But I digress, without further ado, here is an Islamic nihilist with arguments the Israeli government has no answer to ie peace!

Interview with Hamas-Leader Khaled Meshaal
Hamas ready for peaceful coexistence with Israel within the borders of 1967.
By
Rainer Rupp
18 Dec 2006
 
Meshaal lies for EU aid. Nothing new there. And the Mossad agents who were sent to deal with him are to be commended for their humanitarian refusal to drop the Jordanians who tried to stop them, knowing full well as they did what the "Little King's" peace treaty was worth--seven dead Jewish schoolgirls and a consolation visit to Leah Rabin bear that out.

Iby would possibly add "Jordan is Palestine" at this point, but I'm not that much of an idealist/cynic (depending on your perspective.)
 
From your link above: "Hamas will never recognize Israel...Hamas will only establish a state within the borders of 1967 that includes West Jerusalem and the West Bank."

Total non-starter, anyone?
 
Meshaal lies for EU aid
- really, I thought it was you and your fellow racist fanatics who were the ones doing all the lying
cf everything you have said so far on this thread

As you see,
you have now dropped all your earlier lies, as they have all been proven to be what they are, and now you move on blithefully to lie about something new.
 
micro-genocides....because their theory proclaims it and their praxis bears that out etc etc

- and I am the one who is accused of being post-modernist, something or other! I thought that was your strength, not mine. Talking psuedo-philosphical claptrap.

I stand for international law and order, if that is pomo left-wing whatever that is, then fine by me - call it green cheese if it makes you happy.

As you know, the only ones doing any slaughtering and micro-genocides,
the only ones who have ever been the aggressors in every single conflict,
the only ones who refuse point-blank to abide by the laws rules and norms of international law and order - are your racist ethnic-cleansing pals in Tel Aviv.

Again, look at what has been said on this thread, and you'll see the evidence - all you have is unsubstantiated unproven paranoid racist garbage, pure and simple.

Take your last two comments - just personal points of view of a brainwashed racist fanatic who doesn't even live in the racist ghetto utopia of Israel.
 
The south Lebanese Islamic nihilists are up to their old tricks again,
causing mini-auschwitz's on the border with Israel -

“Israelis retaliate after attack by Lebanese Army” email to Independent
from
MediaLens.org messegeboard
08 Feb 2007

Just to make the point clear - this is an email to the 'The Independent' newspaper, here in the UK, regarding an article they published.
 
Joe90: "racist racist racist racist."

Mere invective isn't going to move any Israelis closer to your utopian goals. And international law recognizes Israel's right to live in secure borders, at peace, and requires returning refugees to "live in peace with their neighbors." None of which any Palestinian group has ever been prepared to do.
 
euroballoon - racist lies, racist lies, racist lies

The Israeli racist regime refuses to recognise the existence of international law and order,
hence the reason its brainwashed lunatic racist fanatic supporters are soon reduced to repeating meaningless gibberish and racist lies parrot fashion.

Of course, this racist follower of the Israeli Fourth Reich says that its abiding by international law and order is just a utopian ideal we can't expect from these, her favourite mafia gang of ethnic cleansers and genocidists.

I do believe the supporters of the old Third Third Reich held similar sentiments to these, as well, regarding the drawbacks of having to abide by internationally agreed standards of morality and behaviour.

The current Israel regime is just a bunch of racist war criminals who can't exist without breaking the law - if they did start to behave themselves, and obey the laws that everybody else seem able to live by quite comfortably, then their little racially sterilised slavic ghetto-utopia would be history, as happened to their equally repugnant pals in the illegal Apartheid South African regime.
 
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